Altair Inspire Render beta 2 opened to the public

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SandroS
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Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:54 pm

claudio wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:44 pm
SandroS wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:30 pm
are Proxies fully supported now?
Yes, they are, on a .scn.thea exported by SketchUp
i'm not a SU user. what i mean is, are Proxies now fully supported in the new 'Studio' application (i.e.the new Altair Render application)?
claudio
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Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:18 pm

ALL,

WE JUST FOUND A CAUSE OF RANDOM CRASH WHEN READING BACK A FILE SAVED PREVIOUSLY.
THE FIX WILL BE INCLUDED IN THE NEXT BETA (BEGINNING NEXT WEEK)
THE FILES ARE NOT LOST, WILL BE READ PROPERLY.

Sorry for the annoyance... :cry:

-Claudio
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Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:22 pm

SandroS wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:54 pm
claudio wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:44 pm
SandroS wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:30 pm
are Proxies fully supported now?
Yes, they are, on a .scn.thea exported by SketchUp
i'm not a SU user. what i mean is, are Proxies now fully supported in the new 'Studio' application (i.e.the new Altair Render application)?
Oh, sorry for the misunderstanding...
No, you cannot create proxies yet from Inspire Render or Inspire Studio.

We are working on tools to help simplify complex geometries so to be able to create proxies, especially when saving to the models library.

Meanwhile, try it with complex models, it should be able to handle them gracefully....

Thanks,
-Claudio
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Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:57 pm

I had some play last night and i take back part of my initial "rant". My main issue was the modeling parts in this interface but that was because i only saw videos which showed also the modeler. Yet, as Giannis already noted, it still feels a bit like a modeler. I find this GUI actually slower in workflow than Thea Studio. The top toolbar is nice, but way to big. I'm on OSX and this app is still not supported for retina screens. I've tried to hack the plist file but it doesn't help. This means everything is super big on my screen and i lose lots of valuable space. All panels should be able to either close or collapse which currently they don't. At the bottom there's another toolbar, i don't understand why this always needs to be visual. Not useful for renders, so not needed in view all the time

The Darkroom is worse, the bottom panel for the rendered image caches, relight and network takes WAY to much screen space and can't be changed in size. I dont understand these thin borderlines all over the place, why not make it plain and simple and only use divider lines. Now a lot of space is lost because these lines have margins outside but also inside of them. The Darkroom settings reset on each render even when doing a save. I'm not even sure what that save is for??? The save image button/icon is a bad design. Totally not clear that this is for saving out an image. The Darkroom is not in line with the design of the other window, the main application window. Also, a couple of functions don't work or do seem to work half. Gamma, for instance, does nothing for me. Also Filmic doesn't seem to work in Progressive mode, it looks completely different compared Presto. The updating in the darkroom is terribly slow, thats probably because i dont have a GPU. But there is no image update button. When an image is rendering and i want to adjust items in the right panel i need to wait, what feels like minutes, to see a single update. BUt when the image is stopped, its instant??? I dont understand this behavior. Also denoiser is funky, the NLM seems to be working worse here than it does with Thea4SU. With that i already seem to have issue and never use it because its kind of useless. Its either splotchy and misses imported parts or the complete image is one big blur. Wish i had a GPU because that does seem to work. THe NLM doesnt seem or feel like a proper working product. Ive already talked much about that in the SU forum. Im glad you guys did add a manual refresh instead of it automatically update with each change, which is a nightmare in thea4su.

Talking about the engines. Presto is named Presto/IR. In SU Presto uses different settings for IR compared to Production render, how is this for this application? Why is there just a single Progressive engine, having 2 was better as each had their own strength. Does Presto really really render caustics now because with Thea4su it can't do that and never has been able to.

Presto IR in the main window always render fullscreen. When i try camera's i would want to see the preview of an in camera look and not the complete screen. That's is basically a waste of power since its render parts i don't need. Presto IR seems to run a life of its own, i'm not sure what causes it but it randomly refreshes. When i select something or try to do so, it restarts, which makes it a loss of time.

Editing and making materials without a preview is useless. I dont use IR for and never will do that. Since that basically needs to export the scene and load everything which is a complete waste of time and power. I just want to see what i'm working on. So it really needs a material preview. Also, the material settings have this setting from 0-100, according to the manual, this is to show its color or the blackbody. But in context of the color itself, it really don't understand the need for this. Why would i need to set it to say 50% if can also darken the material. How is setting this percentage from 0-100 different that setting the color darker?? Thats how we do it with thea since 2009?

Glass materials cant change the reflection color. I also dont see med file or ior file inputs. Did i miss something there perhaps?

Material conversions from Thea Studio to this renderer come out way darker. Colors are much darker inside this engine when i open a scn file. Also, roughness settings are completely different. Perhaps this is due to the different roughness methods Thea Render has, which one is this using?

The toolbelt is nice, but really not need with that HUGE toolbar. Unless you can hide that but currently we cant. What i also miss is a camera icon in the top toolbar and one for in the belt. This seems to be missing and editing a camera is kind if hidden now.

Theming the app is nice, but it adjustments are hardly visible. I wanted to try to make a dark GUI but the color which says "panel background" only colors the background of the scroll track??? Some icons feel completely out of design compared to other as if a couple are just thrown in there randomly picked from internet. I miss the styling in some. ALl the edit panels have the "okay" or checkmark button at the bottom. I think its easier for a user if this is at the top or top right, like a close X mark. My screen space is isnt really big due to no support for Retina screens, so many menus have the "okay" button at the bottom. BUt that i need to scroll and this is one thing already pointed out, we cant screen in these panels. This isnt convenient when editing, it makes your workflow much slower since you need contact the scrollbar precisely to be able to do so.

THe download is really huge! I understand you want people to have something to work with, but this is quit insane. Thats my look of course, perhaps other like it. The app itself already is over 1gb?!?!?! Than there is about 2.5 GB of additional data?!?!

Some other also mentioned it earlier, but i do wonder why files sizes are about twice as big. Are also textures stored inside orso?

I miss some items for camera settings like film height, f-stop ( i do see EV stop buts for us this is confusing) I also dont see anything related to motion blur? If animation can or will be supported there should be settings for this. We can store items in camera for TOne Mapping but they are different than in the darkroom. There its called "Filtering", also the order is different which makes it confusing for some users i guess. Another big thing i miss is a dof focus tool, at least i didnt find one. Doing it manually is quite impossible in some cases and is not accurate.

Pause/continue for IR render doesnt seem to work, thats perhaps why it feels like its doing its own thing. THere is no visuel feedback of passes and time passed when its doing IR render.

Ill try to make a better list of my findings, thats perhaps easier to read and understand. This perhaps all sounds like much but i feel the app is much and much better what i tried a couple months back. Still i have mixed feelings about all those popup panels. We are not used to that and since this is a render application i dont understand why they need to be hidden all the time. The way studio had this with the right panel setup and the tabs is way more convenient to work with. Im also a Blender user and this has that same principle. Its way more convenient that popup windows. This is probably due to your existing applications, but my guess is that also could benefit from this method compared to windows for each and every settings and option.

There are many things i do like, the texturing part is very well done. I do miss texture preview however in Display Modes. Also the material panel doesnt show any preview of a texture. In studio we had a nice panel for this, but the current method of mixing is quit different. However, having better visual feedback would be nice. This is probably done to keep the UI fast as it doesnt need to render all the textures in the viewport.

Im not sure about the realtime mode, it is stated that this is near final render. But the lights doesnt even come close. I just get almost washed out scene. The other options like matcap and zebra are super sweet. Thats really useful when modeling. Is there also a mode coming which doesnt need all that power? Also nice that we can add our own, atleast i think we can. A lot of these preview modes are quite demanding on the CPU or GPU i guess.

What i also seem to be missing is visual feedback of the environment lighting, i didnt find a method yet to preview it before rendering. It seems you alway to IR render to test and view things, but i dont like this method. Its not usefull when working on big scenes. BUt im feeling this product is more aimed at modelers for concepting and such.

If you want to sell this to Thea users. You should throw in way more scene and have super nice scene and images. The simple video and scenes i saw are not selling this product. I think its wise to add other scene as well, this will trigger ArchViz people more. That 3 simple basic forms make it look like some kind kids application.

PS doing the Theming colors nothing seems to work. We cant uncheck the overerride. I would also be able to say change icon sizes, mack it more of a compact GUI.

Im not sure what the use is for the section cuts, this seems to be something for modeling since it doesnt work in render mode. Perhaps its not finished, the way it works and how you adjust it is really nice!
Last edited by Rombout on Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:51 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:34 am

Ive found how to preview the environment map btw, thats a cool tool. Doest the scaling and positioning really do anything? I dont see it do anything when i move that hemisphere in the viewport. That dome preview is noce it could use a rotation input as well.

Im not sure i understand why we can move and scale it though?

Last really big point, where is the sun?! There are lights but no sun or is this basically the same now?! I dont see any settings or input for it? Another point in the lighting, we can only use Physical for illumination but not for any other setting. This new approach of global and custom is nice. But it feels like its half finished, im missing some very important parts here. Again this feels more for product rendering and not for scene rendering. Thats is with a lot of other items as well.
EDIT
Ive found the sun but im not sure how to edit its power of shade. WHen its a sun the settings are greyed out. PS thats quite a nice tool on how to do it. Clever method! However when adding lights, there is no info about how to delete them? Edit after a while i noticed cmd + backspace deletes them. I think some GUI button while do better here and also some info on the website will help people.

Physical sky seems to be broken anyways in darkroom it renders complete different compared to what i see in IR. Also the settings give something completly different from what i gt in either thea4su or studio.

Rendering panorama's results in a super weird camera angle. It look like the camera is reset to 0,0,0. I added a couch placed camera and hit render. The results what a shot from below the couch?!?!? There is also StereoScopic missing an new feature we have in the other applications. What do those orientation settings need to do in the camera settings. I tried adjusting them but only the last input doesnt something. It seems like some kind of Orthographic input, yet i dont see any visual feedback when im adjusting them. We also miss camera X and Y shift by the way.
Last edited by Rombout on Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:25 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:24 am

PS where do all temp render and data go?! Is this being deleted by it self, i dont see a data folder with temp files. Though i did found a folder deep hidden in the system with the same session folder Thea Studio has.

Why arent the renders here deleted as well when i delete the caches from the Darkroom app? I noticed all my test renders are basically still on my HD. I noticed this because when i opened Inspire i saw my old renders, so i deleted them in the bottom panel. BUt still there are on my HD, i saw them all in that hidden folder. Is that also why the iRender files are so big. Does it store somekind of other data as well here?

ive found it. Not sure adding those temp render to a hidden folder is a good method. if a user does a lot of rendering this folder will contain 100s of render which are GB. Why not use a dedicated folder or is this only for the Beta for now?

There are actually folders i noticed and after just a couple quick rendres this is already 2.5gb?!?! This could really fill an HD super fast!!
Why does it save and img.thea file and a scn.thea when its rendering?!?!

After checking its content that second folder was from the test app i did in december. Hmmmm not really handy these hidden folders.
EDIT
I see we can adjust this under COMMON in settings. BUt perhaps like thea does, let the user either use default normal location or a custom location. Using hidden folders is really bad!

Groups and instances dont hide when layers are set off. THey keep being visibile in the viewport. Also when you hide a layer why do we need to confirm that, makes no sense and is again extra clicking.

It seems its only visible for parts when your trying to hide the active layer. When i select a different layer and then try it again it works without a warning and also hides everything. Feels like SU, which actually prevents a user from hiding an active layer. This method works half now.

When your in wireframe mode, why dont all objects show in wireframe? I had setup a scene and move some parts to a different layer. I noticed some items do show in wire yet others dont. Not sure if this is because its an instance or simply grouped or layer depended. Also in wireframe mode i cant select items which arent showing the wire frame. I can only use scene list or go to shaded mode.

When you go into isolate mode and hove items hidden, these will show in isolate mode. Atleast this happens with lights, but perhaps they keep visible in general.

Are we able to set object smoothing, normally you can set the smoothing angle or set it to either flat or smooth. I did not find such a setting

The button in model browser "show extra columns" shows extra icons, but doesnt have any further functions. The icons show with a red line and nothing is filtered. Looks like an object filtering method, probably WIP. EDIT they show model properties i see, yet the icons are a bit messy and not really clear.

What i do miss is sorting the Model Browser, we cant really do anything here.

Some settings like UI scaling dont do anything, there are some more items in settings which i dont see do anything. ALso that reminder of days active and video should be able to be hidden. Also why show it again when opening Darkroom, makes no sense!

What the difference between the search/filter and find option, sounds like 2 of the same functionalities. I do notice different behavior, which can be useful.

Last thing, whats the use for that second panel below the main panel in Model browser. It show my selection but really doesnt do anything else.

One more thing i miss is being able to assign a container. When we do glass and liquid renders in Thea either studio or Thea4su or other plugin. We need to assign a container to items so caustics will be rendered. This is also necessary when you want to render fogg with medium and the camera is inside the fogg or medium box. Otherwise it will not render or render black.

I also miss an option to lock camera's, its to easy to accidently start moving and ruining your camera setup by doing so.

Also the X-ray mode in View Properties is wonky. Sometimes its stuck in this mode while its unchecked, i than need to check and uncheck it a couple times to get it to work. Ive noticed this behavior on more settings. Also in the preferences some act like this.
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Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:01 am

How can are objects mapped like the PoltronaPk22 chair. It seems like its nurbs, yet it somehow has textures on it but i edit them with the texture positioning tool. The material window doesnt show any info on how objects are mapped.

I got one more question about mapping. Thea supports multiple uv mapping channel. Yet i dont see any option about mapping. How does Inspire handle this, can it do this as well?

textures cant be edit in the R, G and B values. This is very handy and fast if you dont want to edit them externally. Studio also has this option and Tomasz is putting it back into thea4su.

What i find confusing is when you have a color assigned to an object and than add a texture. The plus icon make sit look like its already being mixed, this GUI design is quite confusing. Also when you do mix color with a texture you can really set the amount, so its 1 setting which is quite limiting to its purpose.

Also they are no procedurals?!

EDIT
after pressing the plus icon mixing the color with the texture, i was able to edit the texture position. Thats quite buggy as it seems.

Im also missing Clay Render options or able to render clay mode

I just found this part in the manual online which basically confirms my feeling about this app. Its really a nice app, i dont like its interface 100% or how i works. But its very usefull, though i do miss quite some items and i find it hard to achieve the quality i get from either Studio or the plugins. Its probably getting used to it, though adding some of the missing features will defenitly help.
What is Altair Inspire Render?
Inspire Render software is a 3D conceptual rendering environment which empowers designers to swiftly create and evolve photorealistic visualizations of forms. Inspire Render software is one of the very few 3D design products which supports both Windows and Mac OS X systems.
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Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:19 am

Hey Rom,

I have been playing with this new version and when I opened your file on material ball preview I don't seem to be able to get the same setup. :crazy:

I think we need a bit of time to get used to the new UI.

I'm struggling with the camera. Where are some videos to show us how :sick: :sick:
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Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:56 am

claudio wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:49 pm
nigec wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:03 pm
There is a bug there though, if you add rotation to the instance the model falls apart
Good catch, going to be fixed next beta.

Thanks,
-Claudio
Awesome, glad to help :)
Could we have a similar sections for releases and support like the other forums,?
Versions & Resources (Altair Inspire Render v2.1)
Support & Feedback (Altair Inspire Render v2.1)
Its really hard to do a bug report if you fill out a form. I usually elaberate multiple times and amend my original post, filling out a form every time is going to stop people reporting bugs

Great report Rom :thumbup:
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claudio
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Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:25 am

Great post Rombout!
I'm going to reply to each one of your items shortly.

-Claudio
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