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Re: Altair Inspire Render and Studio version 2019.3 is now available

Posted: Wed May 27, 2020 6:54 am
by youyou40
Nothing more to add, everything is said.
The studio really suited our needs, but your new product is no longer at all, especially for large outdoor projects.

Re: Altair Inspire Render and Studio version 2019.3 is now available

Posted: Wed May 27, 2020 3:23 pm
by claudio
Mrwip, dbalex, d4m4rk, 3DCGDesign, youyou40, thanks for replying.

I'm afraid the reality is not that simple.
You're saying that TheaStudio perfectly fit your needs.
Well, we had many other use cases, with other users, where the UI was too complex to use and not perfect at all.
What I'm trying to say, is that Thea/Inspire Render is meant to be a tool for as many users as we can.
A complete UI reorganization takes time and of course it requires some adjustments.

I want just to re-iterate some of the pluses we put into the new version:
  • High-performance OpenGL view. I can work easily with 100 million triangles scene with my GTX 1080
  • Support for instances, I can load Thea Scenes with hundreds of thousands of instances with no particular problems, and work in realtime.
  • Real-time renderer that just works. No need to setup complex reflections proxies, GI proxies, etc. We were able to use it for final animations (works pretty well for exterior scenes), how about rendering an animation at 1-second per frame or faster? And we keep working on it. You will see advances on each release.
  • Better UI. You will disagree on this :D But I'm listing this as a plus, because other users welcomed the current UI. But we understand your reasons and we are going to improve it towards your needs too.
  • Floating panels are good for example in a multi-monitor setup. Huge 3D view.
  • Scene browser with all the settings visible, multi-tabs.
(This are the ones that comes on top of my mind)

We are aware that there are still problems, everything is not perfect, and we need to do more.
And we will.
If we had just kept the old TheaStudio as it was and no more development, that would have meant that the project was killed.
The fact that we went through this (disruptive) UI rework, means that we really want to improve it. Perhaps not always in the direction that suits you, and that's our fault, I'm not denying that. We'll make up for it.

We release an update every three months or so.
We released 2019.3, then 2019.4 and we are now very close to releasing 2020.
Each of these versions had tons of improvements and new features.

My suggestion is just to keep evaluating it.
Download each new version and give it a try.
Ask questions. we are happy to help.

Thanks,
-Claudio

Re: Altair Inspire Render and Studio version 2019.3 is now available

Posted: Wed May 27, 2020 4:01 pm
by youyou40
Thank you Claudio

From your detailed answer.
Do you have examples of exterior images made with Inspire render, or better a video.
Because we do not have the opportunity to see on the forum.

Thank you :thumbup:

Re: Altair Inspire Render and Studio version 2019.3 is now available

Posted: Thu May 28, 2020 5:54 am
by d4m4rk
youyou40 wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 4:01 pm
Thank you Claudio

From your detailed answer.
Do you have examples of exterior images made with Inspire render, or better a video.
Because we do not have the opportunity to see on the forum.

Thank you :thumbup:
+1

Thanks for an answer! That's a start, Claudio. What are your plans regards to the ecosystem/ landscaping tools as nowadays there's no archviz without proper natural environment around it?

Re: Altair Inspire Render and Studio version 2019.3 is now available

Posted: Thu May 28, 2020 8:26 am
by mrwip
Claudio,

I think we’re facing here a classical “internet forums” problems. We’ve already all have this conversation previously but are still stuck in a frustrating mutual incomprehension…

So I will try here to explain my (...and I think "our") point of view clearly once and for all, point by point (I’m currently re-testing Inspire Render today and will make full comments on it later on):


Studio 1.5 :


Nobody was “in love” with it, please, understand that, it had a rather complex design, a terrible open GL viewport, a really poor layer system, it was hard to manage scenes assets, and globally was underdeveloped for years. So, if you go back to old forum posts we were all really happy to see it evolve. On the other hand, it as a fantastic material editor, was really robust and really reliable (I’m retesting Inspire Render right now and it just crashes on a reallyyy simple test scene). To switch to a new tool we have to feel that it’s an evolution of this one or something with brand new capabilities. So, understand that instead of waiting a really long time for a new tool that does not bring us much, most of us will have prefer a simple and quick update of the tool we already have and known.


Inspire Render UI :


Honestly, It’s not at all a “new UI”, it really is a stripped down version of existing Altair product, with some rendering tools retrofit in it, but not really giving a feeling of being native there. All of it really behave like an industrial design tool (ortho view, reverse mouse wheel zoom, grids everywhere, nurbs functionalities..), and it leads to the following point :

What is this tool, and who is it for ??
:

Historically (and I don’t think I’m mistaken here), most Thea users where coming from sketchup, and, a vast majority of sketchup users are Archviz users. If you look back at old forum posts, most of the content is Archviz related. In a sense, that’s why we kinda think that this studio was “belonging” to us, so, we where waiting for an Archviz studio.

Let’s take a short side step here on the concept of rendering studio. Since the initial launch of Thea, the market greatly evolved, and there is honestly no such thing as a “rendering studio for everyone”, and it’s a big mistake to think that there could be. After all, what is a studio ? An environment that’s use along a modeling app to allow the user to do easily what’s not possible in it’s native application. And all trades have their specific needs in that regard.
One side of the market is now dedicated to Archviz (Twinmotion, Lumion, D5, Enscape, Artlantis), and they’re presenting a certain number of tools dedicated to this specific art (a complex natural sky system, easy material adjustments, wide plants library, complex instancing tools,etc).
On an other side tools dedicated to Engineers and or Designers ( Keyshot for example), with specific tools that suits them (specific material library like cloth materials, easy studio lighting and simple animations like turntable).

In all this, the actual form, Inspire render is, to me, stuck in the middle of the road. It’s nowhere near the ease of use of other contemporary Archviz studio, neither in term of interface intuitiveness, nor content (libraries), and it's even bad at doing the simplest thing that we could expect from it : re-render old Thea scenes !!! (I'll come back to that later). On the other hand it seems to also be way less user friendly than Keyshot for artists and technical designer for what I’ve seen of it.

So, please, tell us for who it is ? Who are the happy customers ? Maybe, and that could make sense, the only real target are all the engineers around the world already working with Altair product before, and that are at ease with the interface and the capabilities of this tools. I could get that, but an clear statement about that will be nice, instead of never ending discussion about why it does not suits us.

Honestly, since more than ten years that I’ve been working with Thea I tried many time to show it to peoples I was working with, and nobody not already doing renders really feel at ease with Thea studio, while admitting it’s quality. I was so hoping for a Studio V2 to go beyond and proposed something that will suits them, but knowing well the Architectural universe, I’m sure none of them will be attracted by Inspire… And in the meantime most of them have tried Enscape or Twinmotion and are rather joyfull about it. I see that as a sad loss...

Side note : The concept of “render engine for everyone” exist, it’s Vray or Corona, but they don’t have a studio, they’re are strongly, deeply linked to mainly one application, 3DsMax, and are relying on all the existing tools and plugin already there. A studio can't do everything, without being a nightmarish overcomplex thing.
At it’s beginning, I think that Thea tries to be the new Vray, but it failed doing so by trying to do too much in the same time and never really choose a side. Too much engines (AMC, TR1, TR2, BSD, Presto) making it complex to use and understand, too many undeveloped plugins in parallel, no support for complex things such as particles, smoke, hairs, etc… At trying to be everywhere it end up pretty much nowhere (with the important exception of Tomasz Thea4Su plugin quality, and the overall efficiency of Presto).

Re: Altair Inspire Render and Studio version 2019.3 is now available

Posted: Thu May 28, 2020 8:29 am
by mrwip
A last question on this : What's the background of people working on Inspire Render ? Are you close the the Archviz world ? Have you even try the other tools present on this market ?

Re: Altair Inspire Render and Studio version 2019.3 is now available

Posted: Thu May 28, 2020 8:59 am
by dbalex
For me the real thing that makes me want to go badly back to studio v1.5 and not use inspire render is the lack of responsiveness. When you started a render in studio it started immediately, in inspire it takes 1-2 minutes (in real archviz scenes with lots of assets and not simple product shots).

This point on its own is already what makes it in practice not usable for me as an archviz artist. I only need something more powerfull and that makes rendering animations easier and faster then what I can do in thea4su, otherwise if it's as slow to start to render as thea4su and takes 1-2 minutes before starting to render every frame of my animation then what's the point of me using inspire?

I get that for sketchup they need to export the whole meshes and all to the external thearenderer but why when you make a dedicated studio rendering app, you can't have those meshes/textures/assets already loaded and ready to render?

I'm with MRWIP on this, studio was far from perfect, and I understand you wanted to change it, but a complete overhaul for something worse (for us archviz users) is a bit disappointing, you kill the archviz rendering studio and give us something that has a lot more bugs and made for engineers and product shots.

Re: Altair Inspire Render and Studio version 2019.3 is now available

Posted: Thu May 28, 2020 9:00 am
by claudio
youyou40 wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 4:01 pm
Thank you Claudio

From your detailed answer.
Do you have examples of exterior images made with Inspire render, or better a video.
Because we do not have the opportunity to see on the forum.

Thank you :thumbup:
I'll be happy to.
Do you have a scene in scn.thea format that I can use?

Re: Altair Inspire Render and Studio version 2019.3 is now available

Posted: Thu May 28, 2020 9:03 am
by claudio
d4m4rk wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 5:54 am
Thanks for an answer! That's a start, Claudio. What are your plans regards to the ecosystem/ landscaping tools as nowadays there's no archviz without proper natural environment around it?
We have an "Instance Painter" tool for now.
In the "Full" version, Inspire Studio there are a huge number of modeling tools that can be used to create landscape and other stuff. The price is not much higher.

But I see a little misunderstanding here. See my answer to MrWip later...

Re: Altair Inspire Render and Studio version 2019.3 is now available

Posted: Thu May 28, 2020 9:09 am
by youyou40
#I want just to re-iterate some of the pluses we put into the new version:
High-performance OpenGL view. I can work easily with 100 million triangles scene with my GTX 1080
Support for instances, I can load Thea Scenes with hundreds of thousands of instances with no particular problems, and work in realtime.
Real-time renderer that just works. No need to setup complex reflections proxies, GI proxies, etc. We were able to use it for final animations (works pretty well for exterior scenes), how about rendering an animation at 1-second per frame or faster? And we keep working on it. You will see advances on each release.#



I don't have specific scenes, but since you talked about what you can do, I thought you did.

You must have architect clients, who would be willing to share with us