Altair Inspire Render beta 2 opened to the public

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claudio
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Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:49 pm

Rombout wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:24 am
PS where do all temp render and data go?! Is this being deleted by it self, i dont see a data folder with temp files. Though i did found a folder deep hidden in the system with the same session folder Thea Studio has.
[...]
I see we can adjust this under COMMON in settings. BUt perhaps like thea does, let the user either use default normal location or a custom location. Using hidden folders is really bad!
As you found yourself, in the Preferences you can set the folder of your choice. We need to set up a folder during installation, so we used the default system folders.
This is a problem common to many application nowadays....
Rombout wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:24 am
Groups and instances dont hide when layers are set off. THey keep being visibile in the viewport.
They hide, but they are probably also selected, so they are shown anyway (with transparency, though)
Rombout wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:24 am
Also when you hide a layer why do we need to confirm that, makes no sense and is again extra clicking.
It seems its only visible for parts when your trying to hide the active layer. When i select a different layer and then try it again it works without a warning and also hides everything. Feels like SU, which actually prevents a user from hiding an active layer. This method works half now.
That only happens when you are hiding the current layer.
It is important to notify the user, as the current layer is the one where everything is placed, and if it is hidden, nothing will be seen.
Rombout wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:24 am
When your in wireframe mode, why dont all objects show in wireframe? I had setup a scene and move some parts to a different layer. I noticed some items do show in wire yet others dont. Not sure if this is because its an instance or simply grouped or layer depended. Also in wireframe mode i cant select items which arent showing the wire frame. I can only use scene list or go to shaded mode.
Our wireframe is kind of an X-Ray mode, to help visibility in complex scenes.
The selection is done on the wireframe only and we just found a bug that not all object always have a wireframe. This is fixed in next beta.
Rombout wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:24 am
When you go into isolate mode and hove items hidden, these will show in isolate mode. Atleast this happens with lights, but perhaps they keep visible in general.
If you isolate a hidden object, it will become visible. Isolate have precedence over hidden.
(Hope I understood your point)
Rombout wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:24 am
Are we able to set object smoothing, normally you can set the smoothing angle or set it to either flat or smooth. I did not find such a setting
We have two type of polygonal geometry:
  1. TriMesh -- This is a highly optimized geometry, both for memory and for drawing. It has very limited editing possibilities and basically is for library objects
  2. PolyNURBS -- This is a general polygonal geometry, with generic polygons and built-in Subdivision Surfaces. It is less efficient in terms of memory and drawing speed, but allows any kind of editing.
With PolyNURBS you can edit the smoothing angle.

When importing polygonal file formats (.stl, .obj, .3ds) there is a panel with a choice:
  • Import for rendering / reconstruction -- This will import into a TriMesh, this is the default. The geometry is imported exactly as it was specified.
  • Import for modeling -- This will import into a PolyNURBS.
But whatever geometry format you imported into, you can always switch from one to the other.
If you double click on a geometry you will enter edit mode, with TriMesh there is a button in the panel to convert to PolyNURBS.
With a PolyNURBS geometry there is a command in the right-click menu.

NOTE that there is a bug in beta 2 that causes the textures to lose their mapping when you switch geometry like that.
Rombout wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:24 am
The button in model browser "show extra columns" shows extra icons, but doesnt have any further functions. The icons show with a red line and nothing is filtered. Looks like an object filtering method, probably WIP. EDIT they show model properties i see, yet the icons are a bit messy and not really clear.
These are mostly rendering options. When you activate them you activate the corresponding option.
Those options activate some feature that is different from default.
For example by default every object casts a shadow, normally you don't see anything in that column. If you click in the corresponding column, you will activate the option "Don't cast shadows" and you will see the icon there.
This way it really pops up which objects have non-default (special) behavior.
Rombout wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:24 am
What i do miss is sorting the Model Browser, we cant really do anything here.
What do you mean by "sorting"?
You can drag&drop the objects to reorder them, create groups, subgroups, etc.
Rombout wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:24 am
Some settings like UI scaling dont do anything, there are some more items in settings which i dont see do anything. ALso that reminder of days active and video should be able to be hidden. Also why show it again when opening Darkroom, makes no sense!
"UI Scaling" is used in high-res configurations (4K monitors), but apparently in your mac we have problems in handling that...
But disabling it on a 4K monitor will make icons really small, if it worked you may have liked that... ;)
Rombout wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:24 am
What the difference between the search/filter and find option, sounds like 2 of the same functionalities. I do notice different behavior, which can be useful.
"Search and filter" shows only the objects that matches the search string (removes everything else, actually simplifying the browser's content)
"Find" only highlights the first object matching the search string (don't hide anything)
Rombout wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:24 am
Last thing, whats the use for that second panel below the main panel in Model browser. It show my selection but really doesnt do anything else.
That is the Construction History browser and it should not be present in Inspire Render (only in Inspire Studio)
Rombout wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:24 am
One more thing i miss is being able to assign a container. When we do glass and liquid renders in Thea either studio or Thea4su or other plugin. We need to assign a container to items so caustics will be rendered. This is also necessary when you want to render fogg with medium and the camera is inside the fogg or medium box. Otherwise it will not render or render black.
We need to look into it....
Rombout wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:24 am
I also miss an option to lock camera's, its to easy to accidently start moving and ruining your camera setup by doing so.
Instead we have the concept of "Home position" for a camera.
Whenever you have a camera whose position is important, Ctrl+Click the icon for home (third from left).
Then, you can freely move the camera, then just click that icon again and the camera will return to its "Home" position.
(We previously had a camera lock, but it was really annoying not being possible to temporarily move it to do a quick zoom here and there...)
Rombout wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:24 am
Also the X-ray mode in View Properties is wonky. Sometimes its stuck in this mode while its unchecked, i than need to check and uncheck it a couple times to get it to work. Ive noticed this behavior on more settings. Also in the preferences some act like this.
Thanks for reporting, we'll look into this as well.

Thanks
-Claudio
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Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:56 pm

I see we can adjust this under COMMON in settings. BUt perhaps like thea does, let the user either use default normal location or a custom location. Using hidden folders is really bad!
As you found yourself, in the Preferences you can set the folder of your choice. We need to set up a folder during installation, so we used the default system folders.
This is a problem common to many application nowadays....
Well more common is adding it to a normal location and not in a hidden folder. WHen i delete the app this data is still there, wish is not really useful. As i noted its more user-friendly if a user get a notification when its being installed like thea already does. Than use the documents or users home folder. Also, i would change the name "Common" in the preferences to something more meaningful, the current name doesnt say anything about its function.
They hide, but they are probably also selected, so they are shown anyway (with transparency, though).... If you isolate a hidden object, it will become visible. Isolate have precedence over hidden.
(Hope I understood your point)
Nope, thats not it. I have a couple IES files hidden and something of this keeps being visibile in isolate mode. I cant pinpoint wahts exactly happening here.
Our wireframe is kind of an X-Ray mode, to help visibility in complex scenes.
The selection is done on the wireframe only and we just found a bug that not all object always have a wireframe. This is fixed in next beta.
In studio we have 2 wireframe modes, one clear (complete chaos) and one with fill color (much more clear). This current method is randomly making things transparent, where we dont have control over. Makes the function look weird and not do its purpose.
We have two type of polygonal geometry:
TriMesh -- This is a highly optimized geometry, both for memory and for drawing. It has very limited editing possibilities and basically is for library objects
PolyNURBS -- This is a general polygonal geometry, with generic polygons and built-in Subdivision Surfaces. It is less efficient in terms of memory and drawing speed, but allows any kind of editing.
With PolyNURBS you can edit the smoothing angle.
I think i didnt explain it well. Im not talking about modeling parts. Im talking abouit object smoothing, thus smoothing angle of the normals.
These are mostly rendering options. When you activate them you activate the corresponding option.
Those options activate some feature that is different from default.
For example by default every object casts a shadow, normally you don't see anything in that column. If you click in the corresponding column, you will activate the option "Don't cast shadows" and you will see the icon there.
This way it really pops up which objects have non-default (special) behavior.
I tried clicking empty space but nothing like that happened. I only saw icons when i did edit the properties in the object properties panel.
What do you mean by "sorting"?
You can drag&drop the objects to reorder them, create groups, subgroups, etc.
What i meant was ordering alphabetically, sorting ascending and descending. Sort by object, model, name etc etc
"UI Scaling" is used in high-res configurations (4K monitors), but apparently in your mac we have problems in handling that...
But disabling it on a 4K monitor will make icons really small, if it worked you may have liked that... ;)
Im on a 28880x1440 retina screen on OSX. but you r app has big issues rendering in high resolution on OSX. I think the application hasnt been ported properly. It open in low res mode. You can see that by selecting the application icon and press cmd + i. You'll get an info window with alk kind if specs about the app. There it shows this app open in "Low Res" mode and is greyed out. Meaning, everything is super big for us on OSX and looks really pixelated.
Instead we have the concept of "Home position" for a camera.
Whenever you have a camera whose position is important, Ctrl+Click the icon for home (third from left).
Then, you can freely move the camera, then just click that icon again and the camera will return to its "Home" position.
(We previously had a camera lock, but it was really annoying not being possible to temporarily move it to do a quick zoom here and there...)
Okay i need to check that out. The method in thea is really nice, simply lock and done. Once you move it switches to 3dview, many apps work like this. I see if i can get that ctrl click home to work. I found the home button weird, it zoomes in to 0,0,0 which is in the complete middle. Atleast give it a couple meter distance perhaps.

Hope you can still find time the answer and enlighten us with my other question and remarks.

I see other users also have a strong point about the UI, thats i think the main flaw here.
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Fri Jun 21, 2019 6:57 pm

Rombout wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:01 am
How can are objects mapped like the PoltronaPk22 chair. It seems like its nurbs, yet it somehow has textures on it but i edit them with the texture positioning tool. The material window doesnt show any info on how objects are mapped.
I don't understand the question...
Rombout wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:01 am
I got one more question about mapping. Thea supports multiple uv mapping channel. Yet i dont see any option about mapping. How does Inspire handle this, can it do this as well?
We only support one uv channel.
Then we support the standard mappings: Autoaxis, Planar, Spherical, Cylindrical.
Autoaxis is actually tri-planar internally, with nice blend between the planes.

The texture mapping and the material are two separate things.
A materials contains a standard mapping to be applied when assigned, but the mapping is actually attached to the object, not the material.
This allows to adjust the mapping per-object, without having to change the material and the material can still be shared by different objects with different mapping.
Usually of course you do not change the mapping type, but you may need to adjust some of the parameters, such as origin, scale, rotation and tri-planar options.
Rombout wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:01 am
textures cant be edit in the R, G and B values. This is very handy and fast if you dont want to edit them externally. Studio also has this option and Tomasz is putting it back into thea4su.

What i find confusing is when you have a color assigned to an object and than add a texture. The plus icon make sit look like its already being mixed, this GUI design is quite confusing. Also when you do mix color with a texture you can really set the amount, so its 1 setting which is quite limiting to its purpose.
The Texture color blend allows to color a texture. The algorithm is different than the simple RGB values that was in Thea Studio. This method allows to color the texture in a very natural way, preserving the whites and blacks. Photoshop has something similar.
I understand that we may want to adjust the UI to make it more clear.
Rombout wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:01 am
Also they are no procedurals?!
There are not.
Yet. ;)
We are working on a node editor that will include the procedurals.
Rombout wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:01 am
Im also missing Clay Render options or able to render clay mode
That's an option we might add...
Rombout wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:01 am
I just found this part in the manual online which basically confirms my feeling about this app. Its really a nice app, i dont like its interface 100% or how i works. But its very usefull, though i do miss quite some items and i find it hard to achieve the quality i get from either Studio or the plugins. Its probably getting used to it, though adding some of the missing features will defenitly help.
Yes, design is where we come from.
That doesn't mean we don't want to expand our target.
And honestly I don't feel we are so far from architecture.....

Thanks,
-Claudio
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Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:23 pm

Instead we have the concept of "Home position" for a camera.
Whenever you have a camera whose position is important, Ctrl+Click the icon for home (third from left).
Then, you can freely move the camera, then just click that icon again and the camera will return to its "Home" position.
(We previously had a camera lock, but it was really annoying not being possible to temporarily move it to do a quick zoom here and there...)
Just tried the click, its working nice indeed. Now we need camera tools in the toolbelt.

I also got the Low Res mode working now, i dont see a difference since the icons are pixel format and not design for hi-end displays. WOnder how they look on your 4k screen, thats must be horrible
I tried clicking empty space but nothing like that happened. I only saw icons when i did edit the properties in the object properties panel.
I tried it again at computer at work, much lower res screen. Now it does show those icons and i can activate / deactive the settings from the Object Properties much faster, thats nice!
Last edited by Rombout on Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:47 pm

PS i had a quick little look at the icons, though they are for retina the application doesnt seem to render them high res

See top in app vs realtime below. Top looks quite pixelated, i also got the low-res check working and the app is still low res.

Image
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Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:47 pm

I tried it again at computer at work, much lower res screen. Now it does show those icons and i can activate / deactive the settings from the Object Properties much faster, thats nice!
I do indeed admit Mac is a bad beast and we don't support it perfectly...
When you program for it natively everything's ok. When you have to do multi-platform, all sort of things happens and Mac..... Ah! They keep changing things each version.....
(Sorry, programmer's rant :crazy: )

BTW, is this computer at work a Mac too?
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Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:07 pm

Yup the mac at office is a super old macpro running el capitan, im running that at home as well. My guess the java app is doing something wrong. Dont you have this issue as well with your other Mac apps? I would find it weird that nobody noticed this before actually.

PS here's how the app looks on my side. Im on a 2015 Macbook Pro with Retina. Which is 1440x900, but actually is 2880x900. The app opens way to big on my side. I have almost no working area, mainly that topbar is killing it. That bar is not needed and also is way to big, but that was pointed out already. The toolbelt is super nice and i never the topbar already now.

Also the bottom bar, why arent they inside the viewport like the other icons. I dont fully understand all icons, since i think they are meant more for modeling.

Image

PS im now in an never ending crash loop, i cant edit any more material and it keeps crashing

Here's also a preview what i meant about isolate mode and that i see lights or something in the top left. Its shows on everything i look at in isolate mode

Example 1
Image

Example 2
Image

PS if you want use to show images, we should be able to add them through the forum like the "normal" can do.

Here you also see what i meant by lights show in isolate mode. All other object grey out, just like when you hide them. Yet they show when i isolate an object. I did not select the lights. Yet in the model browser you they are not greyed out. Even when i hide them, some parts of them will show
Image
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Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:14 am

I agree with SandroS, to be honest i can't see myself upgrading to this new application too.
I was hoping that Thea studio 2 will follow V-ray(3dsmax-c4d-skp-Rhino etc) integration with
unreal engine thru Datasmith or other real time scenario

I have purchased Thea sketchup V2 but haven't use it in real jobs for months now.
A bit frustrating after using Kerky and Thea for many many years. Hopefully it will come back :cry:

it is all about REAL TIME NOW! of course we don't get high end render in RT ,
but we can always outsource our marketing renders.

Most of the time we are using Enscape-Lumion in our workflow , now that Twinmotion is free what can you do!
To be frank I'll rather invest my time and money to developers who are integrating real time , virtual reality , AR , 360
Not a new modelling application again grasshopper will be great! Cheers
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Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:51 am

We are aware of this limitation, and is something we may add in the near future.
On the other hand, collapsing a panel means you need to un-collapse it when you need it, which adds mouse clicks.
The fact the is transparent, though, makes it much less intrusive and you can still work without it covering any important part of the scene.

A GENERAL NOTE ABOUT THE UI -- As pointed out before, this is now a company-wide UI and as such has to fulfill many different scenarios and target audiences. Because of that, compromises had to be made.... Necessary when customers may use more than one products: switching between application will be much easier.
I understand that it has to fit the ui of other apps. But i think, as do others users i guess, that the top toolbar is to big and not really needed. Compare that top toolbar to the toolbar in thea studio now, its perhaps 1/10 the size. Its takes to much of the screenspace which is needed to look at the scene or do IR renders.

I dont fully understand why other users of your apps should switch. Dont all use Thea Render as internal renderer or is it just that Evolve app which has it. Then it would make sense, i would suggest to make the top part use big or small icons. On my computer at work. The top toolbar was filled for 1/3 its a big screen but has low res. But i lost many valuable space again there.
Selection filters -- this is probably more for modeling, yes
Hide curves, Isolate, Global/Local axes -- This is useful for rendering
Snaps -- This is useful for rendering too, when positioning things
Yes the bottom left i understand and those are nice, i dont understand why the bottom right are than in a toolbar ?! This adds another bar and so we loose screen space again. Why not also add this in the viewport area like the others?! Also a couple of them dont really do much. But i believe you pointed that out as well already. PS that world and local axis doesnt seem to do anything. At least i dont see it doing anything when i have something selected or use the move tool. Perhaps this is only visible in the object properties. If so than i would move that option there. I tried using it with move tool and still didnt see anything change when i press local or world axis. Ive never seen anything show in this statusbar, is that normal?

One thing i notice with relight is that it gets those weird names from the scn.thea scene which is created. I noticed that you also save a scn.thea file along with an image a img.thea and some other files. Using relight is useless without the proper name. Its like a hunt or search to find the correct light now. Also the UI is to big and bulky. Have a look how studio did this, was more elegant and much smaller. ANother point here, the small preview hardly or dont show anything at all. In studio we have the option to either show them or not. Its better not to use them since it takes away computing power to generate these previews.
Image
That save the settings for the specific rendering you are editing. It is the same as in Thea Studio 1.5
In studio we have one settings per active seen. If you render and save cache you can change. If you revert the cache than its reset. Im not sure what this save actually does, it doesnt matter if i press save or not a cache image still shows. Also each time i rerender it gets reset, thats the most confusing on repetitive work. In the camera options there is no way to preset Tonemapping. The manual says Tonemapping get be set in the render settings, but its not there. See manual here

One thing is also noticed today, when you revert a cached image and it had Filmic. It will only show filmic and you can revert to RAW. Than when you view it with Filmic, its basically adding Filmic again on top of the other. So thats sort of destroys the image. Also all other settings are resset and it does not load the settings from the cached image. So that part doesn seem to work yet. But as you stated much needs to be done in the Darkroom
A user cleanup is necessary at some point and we could also add some automatic cleanup, but that may also be dangerous as you probably wouldn't like past rendering to be deleted automatically.... ;)
Well we've already passed that point with Thea Studio many years ago. SInce not many users look at that folder if you render stuff for months it contain 100's perhaps 1000gb of files. In studio these folders are cleaned when you close Thea. Only when a crash happens does it keep them. I find this method more intuitive. Also since this also saves a scn.thea file, which i dont know why, it's even more data which its storing
The darkroom is now also a "render queue" manager. You can send more than one scene, then either close Inspire Render or keep using it to work on other scenes. It also works with network distributed rendering, so you can offload the rendering to other machines and keep the one you are working on free to keep working.
Thats nice, i did not figure out yet how to queue, at least not in a normal way. I can hit render each time but thats weird workflow. It should have a button "Add to que" in the main window. Now i understand why the app feels like a separate app, that makes sense now.

I also saw "Render selected objects", wouldn't it be wiser to make a dedicated button for this? Also not sure how to activate this, selecting something and hitting render doesnt render the selection. The online manual doesnt say anything on how to do this. Its says "select object(s) and press render button". But it keeps rendering the complete scene
That's by design. We kept the same color scheme, but we wanted a UI more tailored to the specific application.
Do you want us to add a ribbon on top? :lol:
hahaha no, but those thin lines make no sense and waste screen space which is already very limited again. But this is stil WIP so i hope it will get better. This area NEEDS MAJOR improvement. Also it NEEDS HUGE refresh rate update and feedback when doing adjustments. Currently, its useless while rendering as you dont see anything happen for a very long time.

When you edit textures with the tool, its not clear that is a per model/object approach. Thats mean you need to adjust each and every model, thats way to tedious when working on a big scene. When i did one model and tried to get the other model to the same, i selected both to see what happened. Than the first model somehow got the adjustments reset? In studio we have a better method, either you adjust on material level, which is global, or adjust on a per model object. This way much better approach than the current method. I dont fully understand why adjust textures cant be done from the material panel? But perhaps the method here is select the material in the material tab, than select all objects you want to edit. Being able to adjust all texture in one go is nice, thats some Studio also has but not many know of.
This is going to require some work inside the engine, so, unfortunately, is not something that can come in the short term.
Not sure why that is though, current Studio has this. But on the other hand Thea4Su is also much slower than studio with updates. In studio we can set it to auto update, manual update or turn it off completely. With each auto update it saves out a temp file and updates the img.thea file. This approach is way faster than this current method. Perhaps it renders faster this way since it doesnt need to save out an image each time. I hope the adjustments while its being rendered will improve.
The idea is to simplify the settings and work as much as you can in IR, than render in the darkroom (the result will be what you see in IR).
Why do we need to work in IR mode? I never work in IR mode and IR mode in this app is always full screen area and you cant save an image from this app?! I prefer to have more options for render engine and i think most users will have the same. Most users do use Presto nowadays, but i still like the hardcore engine and have the choice which one i use. TR1 is faster in some scene so i pick that, sometimes TR2 givs better results so i pick that one. TR2 is the slowest, so to me it looks like we are always rendering with TR2 now. Not handy, since its already slow now we need to have longer render times than needed compared to studio.
Actually there was consesus here that TR1 and TR2 where not really much different and we decided to just use TR2 (now called FULL).
If you have a practical use case where TR1 has advantages over TR2, we can discuss it.
Already mentioned above. Having 2 does make sense. SInce TR1 is more for exteriors and TR2 more for interiors and indirect light. My guess this is to complicated for product designers. But most Thea users are not in that field. So they need different items.
The rendering is so fast anyway that there is no real saving in having specific settings for IR only.
What use is IR mode if you cant save it?!?! You noted better use IR than work in Darkroom, i wonder why?
Well, Presto does not render caustics but we make it appear as it does by internally switching engines on the fly...
What does this even mean in context to Presto??! So i check "caustics" in presto, does it mean when its rendering it switches to FULL? If so thats super weird! That would mean your fooling users?! I already thought something weird was done there. Because when i check it i see the Adaptive Biased option, which is from the AMC engine. This is really weird approach! Your really fooling people that way, NOT GOOD! My bet EVERYBODY starts complaining why off a sudden Presto acts weird and looks weird. Your fooling them thinking they are rendering with Presto while its actually AMC doing the render. A complete different engine?!?! Im really shocked here. As i was doing a test while typing, my thought were right. Checking the info, it also stated AMC. Why why why... you make users act like freaks doing these. Ill be you on this one :roll: It feels like you are trying to make a numb engine out of Thea, something for dummies... :thumbdown:
Image
You can switch to four-views (or any other layout, see View>>Layouts or Ctrl+L).
We also discussed the possibility to have (in the future) detachable views.
This feature is nice but not what i meant. PS there is one big issue here, once you switch from any of the quad views. You cant switch back to a single view?! see below
Image
EDIT
I found it in the manual now, not sure why adding a single button P has been done. much simpler. Hiding such methods is bad UX! Perhaps add an icon for this?
By default, the single view layout is displayed. To toggle between the single view layout and the multiview layout, double-click the top of the modeling window.
I mean when you render, only render the camera frame. See below how studio does it. THough it could also render in smaller frames. That is from the pre GPU time, so smaller frames where needed. But we can choose to render full viewport area or camera frame
Image
These are bugs. If you stumble on a reproduceable use-case, let us know. We keep testing and we'll fix more and more of these situations. We already have some in the list of fixed bugs for beta 3
Well the pause buttons works, but as soon as you move it starts again which is weird. Its nice that we have the shortcuts, because thats the only method i know of to stop it. The manual said something about a blinking icon, but i dont see that happening on my side. See below quote from here
The flashing icon indicates that interactive rendering is paused.
A material preview is nothing without context: how big is the object? What illumination is set up?
I need to see a material in a scene with a specific environment (sunlight, interior, sunset, noon, etc.) and also test it in diffent environments too.
Just having a simple ball doesn't tell anything, apart very simple material properties.
Well to me a preview does, have you at any other render engine? can you name a other engine which also lacks a preview window. I know a small sphere or thing doesnt help you. But it SURE does help me. I first adjust the material on this preview and do all the basic adjustments. Doing this on a small preview is 1000x faster than render a complete scene?!?! Your approach is really useless, why render everything when your focussing on a single mat?! Thats also why we have different preview scenes. So we can have a better context in pair with the material. So for me not having a GPU this is a huge time saver. If you guys add region render than it could make sense, you would only render the part where the material is. But that is also missing.

Another point your method of loading scenes to make material is much and much slower compared to having preview scenes. So i would need load a couple 100mb scene with all if textures. Do the material editing, save it somewhere. Than open the other scene, again couple 100mb plus textures again. Than find the material and apply it.... again this is TO MANY CLICKS. It seems you dont mind doing useless clicks, many items are now way more click than it was. I dont get that part?!
A material preview is nothing without context: how big is the object? What illumination is set up?
I need to see a material in a scene with a specific environment (sunlight, interior, sunset, noon, etc.) and also test it in diffent environments too.
Just having a simple ball doesn't tell anything, apart very simple material properties.
Isolate is nice indeed. But if your scene already is setup its useless in this case. Im rendering an interior, so my lighting is adjusted to that. But since in isolate mode the exterior is gone, so everything is over lit. I could do it again and select the items i do want. But i dont get proper visual feedback when i select multipl items. I see everything keeps getting highlighter, even when its already selected. But again, shoot and miss and try to find the good approach already takes way longer than having preview scenes. I can debunk your approach with more examples, but ill keep it with these.
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Another piece is also the Real-time OpenGL renderer. With time it will support more and more and it will allow to define materials in that mode too.
SOrry but this is quite useless, at least i havet got it working nice. I tried a couple scene and all i get are washed out scenes, completely overlit. Just like below. If it did look better, than reflections looks super weird and completely different than how they should. I only get something which looks like a matcap if i set iso to 30-70. It doesnt respect interiors, since the lights goes through everything. Thats how it looks to me at least.
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Yes, you can make the color darker, it's exactly the same. But this values makes it much simpler. Especially for reflectivity.
This makes it more confusing than its needed. Your making it actually more complicated by doing it like this. Thats how i think about it. Also why have these big color previews, they take up a lot of space. There for we need to scroll more and since scrolling is SUPER tedious again it slows the user down.

ALso once i do edit in full mode, why do i need to click that each and everytime i start the app. Perhaps a global setting is better. Was it done on on purpose to divide the material properties now into main and advanced?! The other approach is more meanfull.
We are adding back the reflection color for glass materials. For ior files we'll need to wait more.
How about the *.med files?
Rombout wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:57 pm
Also, roughness settings are completely different. Perhaps this is due to the different roughness methods Thea Render has, which one is this using?
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Not sure why this was blank, perhaps you didnt understand it. Ive added an image of thea4su to clearify it better. Its basically the method of "standard" vs "Linear" approach. My guess Inspire uses the Linear approach.
With Thea4su, i remember it correct, we also saw wrong roughness conversion in the beginning. I believe that was adjusted at one point and now works properly. I get the feeling this is not the case with Inspire though.
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Toolbelt is also useful for speed, just drag the mouse towards the icon and release.
THat true, i already use it all the time. Which again makes the top toolbar a waste of screen space :) Its a loop of getting rid of the top toolbar ;)
Cameras are part of the views, controls are in the lower-left. See one of my previous replies.
You can set the current camera options using the "Rendering Settings" tool.
Yep, it made more sense once i looked better at that window. But having camera in render settings is confusing. At least to me it is.
You can close the tool (and the panel) by right-click+swipe or double-right-click (see introductory video), no need to click the green button.
The double click is weird, but perhaps that because i did double left click. I do see that small checkmark now appear. But there are more cases where suddenly there are big buttons in the GUI which takes to much space. Like the icons below the material layer window. They are huge for there function. But than the icon to delete, load or do something to a texture is super tiny? There is no real and proper consistency in the icon design and its sizes. I once made a theme for studio which already improved its super outdated design a lot. Though Studio doesnt have as many options as Insprire. I still find this GUI looking much better that Inspires GUI... sorry to say so. Im a graphic designer and also have done some UI design. So im no complete newbie in this part.
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We added tons of beautiful textures :lol:
Thats true, but for a beta way to much! I hope next beta you come up with a clean light version :) Because now together with some test renders i already lost 10Gb of storage on my side.
Well, no, not twice.
I did a few tests myself, the increase is around 30% to 60%.
I can't exactly tell why, differences in how the geometry is stored internally, more data attached to geometry, ...
Probablyy because you can do the editting methods i guess than. Going from poly to mesh, ps not sure why mesh names should change when doing so. Still wonder why we can adjust mesh smoothing angles for the normals. But i pointed that already i believe.
Again this is part of a general simplification of the parameters.
Sorry but this is a render application and thats what we need. Not sure what idea is behind this. Its like making a modeling app and take out important things like scale and rotate?! Or perhaps taking out the option to rotate the environment.... "sorry we want the app simple so you cant rotate the environment" :crazy: :thumbdown: These camera parameters are very important in archivz shots. You seemed again to be focussing to much on product viz here. Thea users area used to be able to adjust as much camera settings as possible. SO stripping out film height, camera shift X & Y and than also leaving out spherical renders really baffles me.
This will come with animation. It will also be possible to have motion blur on static images.
THat would be nice. Also think about vector passes then. This was missing in studio!
It is now possible to interactively adjust the DOF and the focus point from the camera.
Can you iterate on that? Because i find the tools to manipulate the camera super weird! Nothing shows what axis it is and it moves all over the place. Also why does it start IR when i activate it, that a bit to much if you ask me. I tried moving the blue do with right clicl, but that does nothing. I did not find info about this in the manual. Not sure if that is the proper method because i moved the camera more of the times than i moved the dot. Also when i did that, the focus distance does not change. So not sure where the interactive part is here? Another point, you do add EV as a camera option but not F-stop which is used for DOF? Why not both percentage and F-stop, let the user decide what he/she wants.
The manual also talks about adjusting 4 parameters in the control panel, not sure what panel that is. But the camera control panel only shows 3. I noted before, the naming of these are quite confusing and i have no idea what im doing there. THe first to both seem to roll and rotate the camera but there naming indicates some completely different method. Most applications use a translate and rotate approach. That method simpler than this method. Perhaps with better naming it makes sense, i didnt understand this explanation. I thought position is like translate or move, but it also rotates and so does Target. But the middle property of target moves in some weird diagonal method. The orientation does nothing unless i put all at zero. Than the camera jumps to some weird point. Doing a single property here doesnt show anything. Also some shortcuts do something complete different than stated. For instance, shift+rightclick does not dolly but rotato the view on my side. Also the last one "Zoom about the screen center" does not work as stated.
Uhm... this is weird, it seems working to me....
For IR the second click does stop it, but as soon as i do something it starts again. Thats makes no sense.
Yes, it is part of a general UI style... We wanted the largest possible space for the view and thus we opted for popup panels. Using the toolbelt also makes it very fast to switch from one panel to another. Nonetheless we are considering some way to leave some panel always open. It's something that will eventually come in the future.
Okay than please again, let use be able to close that top part and dock all other panels for settings. Make that collapsable, that is really more userfriend than current method. Now its clicking, clicking more clicking to open and close all the time. This window approach is just not intuitive for this application and its need. Its slowing me down at least way more compared to other applications i use. Though im curious what other Thea Studio users thing of this window approach
I do miss texture preview however in Display Modes.
You can use Realtime mode
Yes if it would show the scene lit properly. I noted earlier, i havent found it useful since its simple blasts the scene with weird lighting.
There is a box showing the texture, and it includes whatever color editing you did in the dedicated panel.
What box? do you mean the small square? In studio we have visual feedback of the texture while editing a material. Now its in 2 different tool properties which makes you jump unnecessary hoops all the time. THe texture tool is nice, but i wish it was directly available from the material panel.
Only environment maps and distant lights / sun for now.
And it is not a raytracer, so no accurate lighting calculation...
But you can click the "Visual Properties" icon in the lower-left to adjust the quality. I suggest to switch "Global Illimunation (realtime)" to "Accurate", which uses a simplified raytracing to get a better guess of indirect illumination. It does not do any miracle, but it should make the lighting better. It is also heavier in terms of computation and requires some advanced OpenGL features, so it may not be available on every computer.
Sorry but that is greyed out on my side, i cant edit anything and it really looks like crap. I showed that earlier in this post. Does not work for interiors.
BTW, you probably see the little downward triangle in the texture box, clicking it shows a menu, one important item is "Edit colors". There you can adjust many parameters to change and customize the texture. Once closed, the texture box shows the actual edited texture.
I did find that menu indeed, also pointed out that adjusting RGB single values are missing. These are quite handy and prevents the need to go external editing.
What i also seem to be missing is visual feedback of the environment lighting, i didnt find a method yet to preview it before rendering. It seems you alway to IR render to test and view things, but i dont like this method. Its not usefull when working on big scenes. BUt im feeling this product is more aimed at modelers for concepting and such.
Can you explain better what you would like to have?
Well i was talking about preview the environment lighting. But i later found the last tab, it than show a small preview dome. This is more for adding lights and such, but it also give me feedback how the environment map is laid out. You guys need to check how studio does this. Thats way more user friendly and easier to use than this method.
probably shouldn't say this, but given the amount of valuable feedback you provided I can tell you a secret :)
The reason we have provided such a limited training/demo resources was to test the "intuitiveness" of the application alone.
Not everybody likes to train themselves with videos, they just open the application and play with it.
We wanted you to struggle alone a little bit and see actually what is directly discoveable and what requires more explanation.
Okay thats a nice approach, but seeing most feedback from the users here i guess Altair missed the boat. No 3d software can be opened and used without a manual. The people who need that such not get this app and i bet my life on it that they would not pay a lot of money for it either. WIth this approach your basically killing thea how it was. SOrry to say but i really find it a bad approach. If you want to do this why not make a simple app with one button, call it "Make beautiful" and done! Than let us have the other app with all bells and whistles :) People who dont want to invest in learning application should NOT go into 3d applications! I really hate this kind of thinking.... sorry to say so. NOw your basically limiting the hardcore users because these dummies need to be able to use it :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: Thats quite the opposite of waht Sandros already pointed out about what was said when Altair took over.
Yes that's only for modeling....

Well, that took me a lot of time to answer all that, but it was the best report so far.
Thank you very much Rombout for the time you put into this.

I'm going to reply to you other posts too.
Thanks Claudio, much appreciated!!! Im quite an intensive tester :) sorry i caused you a lot of work and there were like 3 of these posts. I think i pointed out a lot of issues and findings. Perhaps to much for a single person. Tonight i did another run with your comments on the side. So again i got this HUGE post now... sorry for that. But i hope this makes this app better.

Perhaps, like Sandros pointed out, its best that some of the devs look how studio acted. They probably did, but they seem to be missing some vital parts of how stuff works there.
claudio
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Sat Jun 22, 2019 5:09 pm

Rombout,

can you send me the model you are using?
I want to look how it looks in Realtime here.
It may be something in the model, or something in OpenGL....

To show you the expected result, here are two pictures: the first with Thea, the other with Realtime.
Thea IR.jpg
Realtime - Accurate.jpg
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